Dear web master talk,

This is a long story but I will keep it short. I'm looking for an opinion from some a bit more experienced in the field than I.

I am a non-schooled web geek that learned everything from posting in forums and/or taking tutorials on line. I currently work for a small company as a full time web designer / promotions. I also maintain on going service contracts with two other companies.

Four months ago I was asked by my next door neighbor to redesign a client of his website. Although I do know better, I agreed to based on a verbal agreement for total costs in hosting and design. ( this is my next door neighbor would he really stiff me? my first mistake ). This gentleman also owns a phone and networking systems company.

Throughout the 60 + emails, phone calls and alot of nit picky type changes in the design, adding and removing content, and so on, I had responded to every wish and design as far as content / design withing 24 hours and executed the changes. (my second mistake).

As time went on, this guy kept re-assuring me verbally that we would complete the project and get paid soon. (I went along with it... my third mistake) up until November when I officially submitted and invoice for services. Meanwhile, I continued to receive requests for updates and I followed through with them until December. At that point I asked about my invoice and any word of payment. I was assured that I would receive a check around the 27 of December.

Here's were it gets involved. I had pretty much had it with all of the requests for changes in the design and I was starting to get worried I may never see payment for my work so I set a deadline on payment of five days or my services would stop.

Maybe this is an unethical thing to do but, since the site was on my hosting package in a preview only form. I pulled the site after the deadline for non - payment.

2 days later, I started receiving emails wondering why the preview site was down? I relied, "The site has been disabled due to no-payment". The very next day this guy asked me to call him to discus this matter and proceeded to tell me he had in fact received payment for my work but had run into a "math error" in his checkbook and won't have the money to pay me. He then went on to ask me if he could make payments. I was furious ! all of this work I had done and my next door neighbor decided to spend my cut of the profits !!!!

MY phone conversations today ended with me demanding payment immediately or the site would not be restored. He then proceeded to tell me it wasn't going to work that way. I said I'll see you in court!


My question is, obviously without a written contract, I may not have a leg to stand on but, I have saved every email pertaining to this website including the email where he admitted he was paid and now "due to a math error" in his checkbook he can't pay me.

Do email correspondence letters stand in court as proof of an agreement?


Thank you, Sydpix

Yep, at least in some extend emails can be used as evidence. Also, why would you be obligated to put up the site, as the other side has just as less proof as you do?

I have learned that I never do these "for a friend" type of things to anyone else than my real friends, not to my neighbours, not to any friend's friend etc. as they always expect huge discounts and when it's time to pay often there is problems...similar to what you described.

Originally Posted by PolarWeb

Yep, at least in some extend emails can be used as evidence. Also, why would you be obligated to put up the site, as the other side has just as less proof as you do?

I have learned that I never do these "for a friend" type of things to anyone else than my real friends, not to my neighbours, not to any friend's friend etc. as they always expect huge discounts and when it's time to pay often there is problems...similar to what you described.

Would you suggest I leave it up? I'm not so sure I undertand the question.

Thanks

Yes the emails are your main proofs. You should also keep a backup of the site and coding you designed and the betas with minor and major bugs.

If the site is good you can resell them

Originally Posted by Sydpix

Would you suggest I leave it up? I'm not so sure I undertand the question.

Thanks

What I ment was that why would you keep it up, not that you should keep it up

Originally Posted by PolarWeb

What I ment was that why would you keep it up, not that you should keep it up

oh! I misunderstood. Pulling the site was an effort to receive payment for services then and only then would I put the site back online.

It was initialy online in "preview" status so my supposed client could view the progress.

You've just gone thru "Business School 101" -- now you know, whether it be friend; neighbor; family member; etc, to always get payment up-front ... if they can't pay all of it, you can only design for how much they pay.

Always have your Attorney draw up a legal, binding contract for all parties involved to sign; have notarized; and each person gets a copy -- in the contract, be specifically clear that "after 3 changes to the original site, you shall REQUIRE additional funding."

As for the emails; you have a 50-50 chance of recouping your losses, but this will involve taking them to Small Claims Court ... good luck!

Get good templates for agreements like this from an attorney. Those doesn't have to be complicated, but clearly stating what is the product/service ordered, how the payment will be made, any additional services related and also especially when it comes to webdesign what you do and what things customer must take care of and I have also learned that is good to include a statement that when the site is ready and the design is given to customer from that point forward changes and updates made to design aren't part of the contract anymore...Some customers think that ordering a design means ordering full time maintainance.

lol!
I've recently had a similar problem. Once you get too friendly with your customer, that's it. There is no way you get what you've initially agreed upon and it can only end up in an argument. I do some IT engineering work along with web design. I've fixed one guy's PC (two times, because he managed to delete some important Windows files), upgraded it and gave him about 8 hrs training on how to and not to use a computer along the way and I also sorted out his charity website hosting. Altogether I worked for him about 12 hours.

After he mentioned he would like to redesign his website, I created a template for him. And that's where it started.

First he started yelling because I had "stolen his website". Then, after I explained to him it was just an offer which he doesn't have to accept and that his original site is still up and running, he got angry because I "dared to make this template without his consent" and later he got mad because of the price I was asking for it.

Eventually I got paid £60 for 12 hours of work, and nothing for the web design effort.

My advice:
1; Never use terms like "I will do..." or "You can pay me...". Always say "WE" and "US". That way you give the whole negotiation more corporate feel.

2; NEVER EVER visit your customer at home or let them visit you!

3; If you must, only visit them to discuss business or do some work, but DON'T talk to them about anything else.

4; Set up a reasonable price and DO NOT negotiate! No IT company will negotiate with you about prices for their services.

verbal agreements do have some use, but i would accept the payment plan he has offered and put the site back online once he has paid up, he will pay you back in no time

I had a similar problem last year, a friend of a friend in need of a site. I did have a written contract that states I receive 1/2 up front "non-refundable", and after lots of work and lots of correspondence on my part, I kept getting excuses for why he was not giving me the content he was going to get me, and finally he made some comments that he should have unlimited time to get me these things since I was working for him, so I pulled his site. My agreement states that I have one month to complete what we discuss, and that the client is responsible for content, so although I felt guilty pulling his site, I did it so he wasn't taking advantage. I sent an email asking for the final payment before pulling the site and told him I thought it would be best if he contracted someone else to do maitenance for him since our working relationship wasn't working. I have yet to be paid, nor have I heard anything from him in several months. I was glad I got my 1/2 up front at least since I did put a lot of effort in for him.

when people do this **** to you, the best thign to do is to keep on smiling and not rush to court. You'll get more of your money that way. discuss payment options, monthly etc. if you take the site down and threaten legal action he probobly won't pay.

Well from the sounds of it, you know what you did wrong... lesson learned. Never ever do work without a contract!

Anyway, If I understand right, this was a redesign for a client of the neighbor? If that's the case, what does the actual client feel about this? Did you take down the original site?

The only thing that's going to solve this is a sit down face to face meeting with your neighbor. Explain to him (politely) that all work has stopped on the site until payment is received within 14 days. There isn't much that can be done. Yea there was a "verbal agreement", but without a witness to the agreement, it will be a he siad he said battle.

As far as email goes, it carries the same weight as written material I think. The other person can challenge the authenticity of the emails, in which case you would have to prove they are "real" and that they were sent by the neighbor. That involves getting all the header information off the email as well.

i think in the freelance design world it's a sort of right of passage to get screwed by a client.

1) You have no reason to put the site back up until you receive full payment, nor should you even question your decision to pull the site. It was the right decision. If he wants to make payments, fine, but i would only put the site back up after payment has been made in full. He's already shown he can't be trusted on good faith.

2) Don't be worried about him taking you to court. No small claims court is going to side with him, especially if you have email proof of an aggreement and his non-payment. In fact, you should do him one better and take him to court, as these emails would more than likely be enough to show that he did not pay for services rendered. If he does take you to court, i would file counter charges for payment not received + court costs + time lost +attorney fees (if you hire one). You are in the right here.

Bottom line, this happens to all of us at one point or another. When it happened to me, initially i was infuriated. But i talked it over with a more seasoned designer, who gave me great advice, chalk it up as a lesson learned, and be glad you no longer have to deal with this client!